Okay - couple quick thoughts: as I acknowledged, there are people who regret transitioning. For some reason, there are a few of them who are quite vocal about on the internet, but whatever. *However*, there are thousands and thousands of people who have transitioned and are very happy with it. Why should the negative experience of a few people affect the ability of thousands to be happy?

Second - to Marsel's point: where do you get the idea that people are being told that a full transition is the only way to "cure" gender dysphoria? That's not the case at all. There are many ways to be trans, and a full transition is only done when the person feels all the other options have been explored or are inadequate. I myself have found a "middle ground" that is short of a full transition, but has gone very far in addressing my "trans-ness." Keep in mind that only around 10% of transpeople end up making a social transition. The rest of us find a middle ground and go on with our lives, much more content than we previously were.

On the post on Quora that has since been deleted, someone shared an article of a male-female-male, a man who went under the knife for a sex change, then regretted it, and then went back to being a man.

I also watched an interview with a much older man who had the surgery, became a woman, regretted it, and went back to a man but never got things "reattached."

But this is the exact stuff that needs to be talked about, and it's simply pushed under the rug. Some people regret it, some people don't. Do you really want to spend all that money on something that might not make you happy? Wouldn't you rather find something else now that will help you?

Transitioning is hailed as the only way out of dysphoria, but it's not. And if it is, then it shouldn't be. People like this need more than a rainbow flag behind them, they need an ear to listen to their true feelings, a hand to hold as they cry, someone to say "you don't have to do this if you're unsure about it."

But no. They're expected by one side to just stop feeling the way they feel, and they're expected by the other side to go forth and transition and go all the way. They're caught in the middle and speaking the truth about this is regarded as hateful.

When I was a teen, we all played a computer game called "MULE", written by a guy named Dan Bunten. Later in life, Dan underwent surgery and changed his name to Danielle Bunten. He is heralded as a transgender success. But Dan/Dani's take on it was quite different from what the proponents are saying. Here is what Dan/Dani wrote about transitioning:

Don't do it! That's my advice. This is the most awful, most expensive, most painful, most disruptive thing you could ever do. Don't do it unless there is no other alternative. You may think your life is tough but unless it's a choice between suicide and a sex-change it will only get worse. And the costs keep coming. You lose control over most aspects of your life, become a second class citizen and all so you can wear women's clothes and feel cuter than you do now. Don't do it is all I've got to say.

That's advice I wish someone had given me. I had the sex change, I "pass" fine, my career is good but you can't imagine the number of times I've wished I could go back and see if there was another way. Despite following the rules and being as honest as I could with the medical folks at each stage, nobody stopped me and said "Are you honest to God absolutely sure this is the ONLY path for you?!" To the contrary, the voices were all cheerfully supportive of my decision. I was fortunate that the web didn't exist then - there are too damn many cheerleaders ready to reassure themselves of their own decision by parading their "successful" surgeries and encouraging others.

I can speak the transgender party line that I was a female trapped in a male body and I remember feeling this way since I was 4. But, it's never that easy if you look at it sincerely and without preconception. There's little question that a mid-life crisis, a divorce and a cancer scare were involved in at least the timing of my sex-change decision. To be completely honest at this point (3 yrs post-op) is not easy, however, I'm not sure I would do it again. I'm now concerned that much of what I took as a gender dysfunction might have been nothing more than a neurotic sexual obsession. I was a cross-dresser for all of my sexual life and had always fantasized going fem as an ultimate turn-on. Ironically, when I began hormone treatment my libido went away. However, I mistook that relief from sexual obsession for validation of my gender change. Then in the final bit of irony, after surgery my new genitals were non-orgasmic (like 80% of my TG sisters).

So, needless to say, my life as a woman is not an ultimate turn-on. And what did it all cost? Over $30,000 and the loss of most of my relationships to family and friends. And the costs don't end. Every relationship I make now and in the future has to come to terms with the sex-change. And I'm not the only one who suffers. I hate the impact this will have on my kids and their future.

Anyway, I'm making it sound awful and it's not. There are some perks but the important things like being comfortable with myself and having a true love in my life don't seem like they were contingent on the change. Being my "real self" could have included having a penis and including more femininity in whatever forms made sense. I didn't know that until too late and now I have to make the best of the life I've stumbled into. I just wish I would have tried more options before I jumped off the precipice. I miss my easy access to my kids (unlike many TS's I didn't completely lose access to them though), I miss my family and old friends (I know they "shouldn't" have abandoned me but lots of folks aren't as open minded as they "should" be ... I still miss them) and finally, I hate the disconnect with my past (there's just no way to integrate the two unrelated lives). There's any number of ways to express your gender and sexuality and the only one I tried was the big one. I'll never know if I could have found a compromise that might have worked a lot better than the "one size fits all" sex-change. Please, check it out yourself before you do likewise."

- Danielle Berry -

You use your TEETH to eat pie? How dare you, why don't you eat it through a STRAW after blending it in a BLENDER?!

*sucks pie through straw*

I enjoy partaking in the event regarding the consumption of pie using one's own mouth, tongue, and teeth in order to bite into, swallow through the esophagus, and digest in the stomach, small intestine, and large intestine, the confectionery and pastry that is often idolized and symbolically represents the classic American Midwest that is known in the English language as pie.

*Instantly diffuses controversial situation*

Brandon! Sorry - no idea where I got Ben from! It was the end of a long day when I wrote my response. I also wasn't trying to be condescending, so apologies if anyone took it that way. I did simplify a fair bit to try to keep it short; perhaps I went too far.

Skylar - thanks for your response, I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I agree that our society -- generally speaking -- does subscribe to relatively rigid social constructs when it comes to gender expression and these constructs don't really do any one any good (particulary women).

However, I have to disagree with you when you say that trans people are the "greatest victims" of gender social constructs. As I said in my first post, what I would really like to convey is that being trans is *not* only about gender (or even about it at all). It's about a deeper sense of who you are (that idea of who you want to see when you look in the mirror). That's why the "trans-narrative" irritates me, because it spends 95% of it's time focusing on gender roles and everything else seems to get lost in the shuffle.

You say that the "gender boxes" are wrong, and that there shouldn't be any boxes, just free expression. I *completely* agree with you, and I think you'd find most trans people would as well. True, there are a few who are all about traditional gender roles, just like there are cis-people who are all about them as well, but nearly all of the trans people I know fall squarely in the "gender fluid" camp.

By way of example, I saw in another of your posts that you're a fan of the Wachowskis. Do you think the minds behind all of their remarkable creative output would feel constrained by social gender norms to the extent that they would need to transition? (I mean, they saw through The Matrix and all... ;-). Or if you know Sense8, you are probably familiar with the actress Jamie Clayton who plays "Nomi." Before she transitioned, she was an out gay man who worked as a makeup artist in the New York fashion world. Hardly someone who seemed concerned with how a "man" is supposed to behave.

Unfortunately, the "gender" in transgender and gender dysphoria is a misnomer. That's why I prefer "transperson" or simply "trans." I admit that this use of "trans" does connote a passage between a duality, in this case from woman to man/man to woman (you could also use female/male, but I'm sensitive to those who will trot out the chromosome agrument). I realize there are some who would like to see even the man/woman distintion done away with. Personally, I feel that even in a society absolutely free of gender roles, people with the same reproductive function and body types (i.e. males and females) would tend to group themselves together (happy to discuss this further if anyone is interested).

Finally, I'd like to ask where you saw the statistic that 20% of transpeople regret their transitions? That seems *very* high to me. Usually the figure is in the less-than-1% range. Personally, I know dozens and dozens of transpeople and I don't know anyone who regrets transitioning. Also, when you do read about regretful tranpeople, keep in mind that transitioning is one of the most difficult things a person can possibly do. You risk losing family, friends, loved ones, your job (and prospects to get another one). If that wasn't enough, it's also expensive and can require a lot of painful and invasive medical attention. It's not something that *anyone* does without exploring every other possible option first.

I wasn't offended. I was just hoping that wasn't what they meant, and I let them know I wasn't jumping to conclusions, even though my initial reaction was, "Did they mean what I think they meant?" I knew it probably wasn't what they meant, but it still felt that way initially. I just felt the need to express it. Perhaps that was unnecessary on my part. I apologize.

If it matters at all, I didn't find the comments condescending, and I also wasn't offended by being called "Ben".

For Purlicue, I just wanted to say that my opinion wasn't formed by the "trans-narrative" that the media portrays, and while you may not have intended this, I feel that comment was fairly condescending. My opinion was formed on the notion that being transgender is, as has been stated, gender dysphoria. I don't think that boys and girls liking gender-specific toys/clothes opposite of their gender = gender dysphoria. I'm aware that it is much, much more complicated than that, and again, although you may not have intended it, I feel that this is a comment towards the "poor, ignorant cis people who mean well but just don't understand." I'm choosing not to take it that way. I just wanted you to know how it might've been interpreted.

My comment was in regard to social constructs. The fact is, people feel that their gender is on a spectrum. I myself am not a girly girl in many ways. Men can wear makeup. Girls can shave their heads. My argument isn't that "this doesn't make them the opposite gender therefore they're crazy for thinking they are." My argument is that social constructs create gender dysphoria. That when you tightly compact gender roles into neat little boxes, people feel the need to fit into these boxes. These boxes are simply wrong. There shouldn't be any boxes. There should only be free self-expression.

One should not subscribe to any gender roles at all. They should simply behave in whatever they feel is true to themselves. If that means getting surgery and taking hormones, then fine. But my question is, Would people feel the need to do this if there were no gender roles to fit neatly into? If you are born with a penis/vagina, and no one is telling you that having a penis/vagina = "X" kind of behavior, would gender dysphoria still be a thing? Or would people simply express themselves in ways that aren't defined by their gender, or the gender that they feel they should be? If there is a vacuum of "gender," if the notions of "female" and "male" (in terms of expression in relation to these genders) did not exist, would people feel the need to take hormones and get surgery?

I would say yes. But not because of gender. More like because of a desire for cosmetic alteration. If a person with a penis saw a person with breasts, the penis person might like those breasts, and want some for themselves. Not because he identifies as that gender (because there are no "identities" in the form of what's between your legs in this hypothetical world), but because the penis person likes the way breasts look.

I'm not saying this is how trans people think and feel now. I'm saying that now, they are bombarded with social constructs (as are we all), saying "This is how you should look/think/behave when you have X genitalia," and they aren't able to reconcile how they feel about themselves with the things they're being told are "right" and "normal." Up to 20% of transgender people regret their transitions. This is because they assume that because they do not subscribe to the behaviors associated with the sex they're born with, it must mean they're the opposite gender. Often enough, this is not the case.

Transgender people are the greatest victims of social constructs. We all are affected by it, it damages everyone in different ways, but when you combine gender dysphoria with the need to fit into boxes, you get a terrifying mess that makes cisgender problems within social constructs pale in comparison.

I found this post after happening upon Marsel's second Quora post about this one being taken down (and am quite surprised/disappointed to learn that that post has now been taken down, too).

I'm a trans-person myself and I appreciate that Marsel and those leaving comments are taking an open-minded approach to understanding a complex topic (one that is not any less complex even when you are trans, btw).

If I may, I have a couple honest questions prompted by your original post, a few comments that you may find helpful, and finally, am happy to open myself up to any questions you may have.

On the question side: I'm not sure the point you're making when you say that "sex and gender are the same thing." Are you saying that if one is male then one is a boy/man, and if female, a girl/woman? Or are you including gendered behaviors in the equation as well? Things like girls play with dolls and boys trucks, women are passive, men agressive, etc?

Also, while you state that you don't look down upon someone who transitions in order to be happier, you ask what about those who can't transition for financial, social, or other reasons? Are you saying those people are forgotten, or not supported, or something else should be done to help them?

As for comments: when it comes to trans-youth, I wanted to point out that cross-sex hormones aren't given until the child is as least 16, sometimes 18. When they are younger than that, they are instead given medication that suppresses puberty. The suppression is fully reversible if they were to stop taking the medication.

I found Skylar and Ben's comments particulary interesting, because to be honest, I can't argue with their conclusions based on the representations of transpeople they see in the media. Too often the "trans-narrative" focuses on childhood playtoys, or what clothing a child did or didn't want to wear (dresses in particular). The conclusion then goes: this boy likes playing with dolls, and girls play with dolls, so this boy must really be a girl! Any reasonable person hearing this would think "wait a minute, boys play with dolls all the time, or girls don't, it doesn't make either one any less a boy or girl." It seems only logical to come to the conclusion that transpeople are in fact regressive and overly conservative in when it comes to gender roles, and that this conservatism seems out of step with, well, just about everything else under the LGBT rainbow.

What I want to let you know is that I *really* dislike the trans-narrative as it is usually presented in the media. It does transpeople a huge disservice and makes it even more difficult for those who aren't trans to understand how we feel. So, in an attempt to do that, let me start by saying that despite the use of the word "transgender," being trans isn't really about gender at all. It's not about wearing certain clothes or acting in certain ways. The best way I can describe it is that it's who you want to see when you look in the mirror. In a world full of men and women, it's tough when the person looking back at you isn't the one you want. Tough enough that many of us will take steps to look more like the person we'd like to see looking back at us (though not all, but that's for a later post).

I'll leave it there for now, though realize I may have created as many questions as I (hope I) answered. Feel free to ask them. AMA as the Reddit people say. I'm traveling a bit for the holiday, but will respond when I have the chance. Thanks for the read!

In case none of you have heard of the recent, and hopefully final, chapter in the Quora Drama Chronicles, you can see the latest piece of silencing action they've enacted here https://flusteredneutral.wixsite.com/flusteredneutral/book-talk/shoot-the-breeze/oh-the-f-king-irony

Oh yes! I'm so glad I finally found the opportunity to re-read this answer. I didn't even know what gender dysphoria is, or that it even existed until I read the post on Quora. And guess I found myself a new site to pass the time with.

"I've thought of it that way myself before I got caught up in thinking that simply letting people do what they want to do is the best way to go. "

This is the dilemma of the modern social liberal, and where I find a lot of liberals moving in the wrong direction on a number of issues. Liberalism for the sake of Liberalism tends to just want to let people be whoever they want to be.. and if everyone lived in their own bubble, this would be fine. I certainly wouldn't care about whatever decisions people were making for themselves, even if I thought them to be counterproductive or otherwise harmful to the person making said decision. It's their life. In reality, however, the decisions we all make affect other people. In regards to this particular issue, one ENTIRELY tied up in people's self-image vis-à-vis their relationship to genders on the whole... the decisions of any one individual ARE important to society at large, so they must be considered in terms of their impact on everyone, not just the individual making decisions for themselves.

People need to think outside of themselves in regards to this issue, and the common practice of wanting to shut down opposing viewpoints on this topic (ie. Quora) is completely unhelpful. This truly is a topic that pertains to society at large. Yes, one subsection of society certainly deals with this issue more personally and acutely than the rest of us, but it's not at all honest or helpful for one group to claim a monopoly on the ethical discussions surrounding this topic. Forcing people to acknowledge a person's preferred gender (out of dozens, if not hundreds of options now, that the vast majority of society isn't even aware of), shutting down any manor of conversation around the topic, all of these practices that seem to be gaining steam among Liberals when it comes to a bunch of different topics, seems to fly in the face of what it means to be a social Liberal.. but I digress; that's a whole other topic.

But yeah.. at the end of the day, I always want people to be able to do whatever they want to do too. I just think we should all be allowed to engage in the conversation, and help steer the discourse and the subsequent actions towards those that are most helpful for all of us. It's altogether possible, and exceedingly likely, that those individuals that go through this personally ARE missing some angle of this issue that could be helpful, and it's not at all wrong to want to engage people, and challenge them. And we should all be able to do that without being labeled as bigots, or having posts taken down for "hate speech".

The sort of "self censorship" that we engage in now is just as unhelpful. When we just say "live and let live", I think we're shunning our responsibility to society to help it grow. Even if we're putting out incorrect info into the public sphere.. it's helpful to have the conversation, be corrected, develop new ideas and grow. The modern Liberal attitude of just letting everyone do them, and thinking we're not allowed to have opinions is pretty anti-Liberal, at least traditionally.

I actually completely agree with Brandon. I've thought of it that way myself before I got caught up in thinking that simply letting people do what they want to do is the best way to go. I think it'd be better if there were no social constructs that defines what a female or a male is entitled to behave like in any way, rather than saying, “Because I behave more like the standard of a male, I should physically BE a male instead of being female.”

Being an idealist, I can dream of a world in which people didn't at all subscribe to social constructs regarding gender. Many non-trans people already don't, and they don't have a bunch of crazy labels either. Men simply paint their nails or wear skirts if they want to, and women always wear pants, cut their hair short, don't shave body hair, etc., all without identifying as the opposite gender. I do believe these constructs can and should be melted away over time. I think this is an excellent point in regards to how being transgender itself isn't “wrong,” but could be handled in a much better way than misconstruing science and censoring thoughts about it that others may not like.

I'm here from the Q.. just want to give my own little opinion on the topic. I suspect my opinion would somehow be construed as hate speech too at the Q, so I'm just going to leave it here...

I think transgenderism is a farce. I don't hate transgenders.. I don't discriminate against them.. but I do think they're just going about all of this incorrectly. I get that this is an opinion that people will say I have no right to have.. but if you're the kind of person that thinks only certain people can have opinions on certain topics, then.. well just stop reading.

I agree that gender and sex are the same thing, but even if you want to separate them, you kinda take meaning away from the term "gender" in doing so. In removing the strict anatomical considerations (which is something no amount of surgery or hormones can change), all you're left with are the social norms, and the argument for transgenderism becomes one that encourages dangerous practices (surgeries and hormones, the suspension of objective reality), so that a person can visually fit more cleanly into a social construct, which to me, seems REALLY silly, and very harmful.

If we're talking about social constructs, the end game for those that experience some measure of gender "confusion" (and even those that don't experience this confusion) , should be the eradication of these constructs (not strictly talking transgender issues here, but we don't need MORE genders, we need none) The goal should be to make it so that those living with this "confusion" now, and those that would feel it in the future, do not have to live in a world wherein there are such strict confines related to gender, thus, no reason to feel confused. If a boy can grow up in a world wherein being a boy has no connotation attached to it in regards to his thoughts or behavior, then there is zero reason for confusion. He can feel comfortable in being himself, regardless of who that "self" is.

To this end, it seems to me that today's transgender individual is harmful. Today's transgender teaches confused people that by partaking in dangerous surgeries and hormonal treatments, you can assimilate into the gender you wish to be. Socially, being a man still means whatever it meant yesterday. Being a woman still means whatever it meant yesterday, but now via smoke and mirrors, you can be a part of your desired construct, or at least get people to think you are, and force people to address you as such. If you don't like who you are.. if you're confused about who you are, taking measures to change how you look is the answer. This just seems so misguided to me.

Maybe this is a bad comparison, but it seems apt to me- today's transgender reminds me of light-skinned Black people who used to "pass" as White in America in the early to mid 20th Century. They chose to try to opt out of the experience of being Black in America, and assume an identity that made their experience easier. They chose not to do the hard work of trying to improve the stature of the African American, so that nobody would feel the need to "pass". They chose just to engage in a visual farce, and let those darker folks deal with the oppression, and whatever they could do to force better treatment.. that was their issue. The African American community is STILL dealing with issues regarding skin color (not all coming from "passing", but that's certainly still a part of it all). If we ever get to a point as a people where the concept of gender norms goes away (which, again, seems the OBVIOUS ultimate goal here), I can't imagine history looking back at the modern transgender as anything more than a confused coward (even if that cowardice is something I have empathy for.. there's still no way to look at this behavior as brave or TRULY honest).

Then there's just the forced suspension of reality that can't actually be helping anyone. A woman that takes hormones is no more a man, than "passers" were White. If you find yourself on the side of suppressing objective reality, you can basically be sure you're on the wrong side of things (and creating a distinction between sex and gender is a willful obfuscation of reality). The answer here, to me, has to be for people to live as their true selves, in their real bodies, and let that be that. The more people do that, the more and more our norms will go away. This solution subjects people to discrimination.. to violence.. to all sorts of terrible behavior from assholes. I get it. But it's necessary. It's the only way to progress. Transgenderism, at best is a brief detour on the road to a real gender revolution, but more accurately, it seems like a huge step in the wrong direction to me. It teaches people that living a visual farce is somehow better than living in your real truth. It does nothing at all to solve the root problem, and makes it less likely that that root problem will be solved.

Sorry for rambling.. just typed this up at work, while working on other stuff.

Thanks for posting your answer here (Q user too) and for sharing the link to this site. This is a really cool alternative where you don't need to be afraid to speak your mind - I'm all about that. (Following you on Q now too :) )

I've done a lot of research on the trans community because honestly, I do find these things fascinating.

From what I have read on the subject, the scientific identification of there truly being more than two genders is simply not a thing right now.

What most people would define as gender is simply various personality traits, and even gender non-binary people still physically fall into either male or female categories.

As for people such as hermaphrodites, again, from the research I personally have done, they are either male or female. In other words, they are either a woman with both male and female sex organs, or a man with both male and female sex organs. This is based off of only my research into the subject, if I am wrong or misinformed please show me.

In an edited answer on Quora that is now gone entirely, I elaborated more on what I meant by there only being two genders (I was referring to the tumblrite terms, in which personality is gender and gender is defined by such confusing terms you would never really understand it unless you subscribed to these ideologies, i.e, Flowergender or Galaxygender) so I will fully admit that the majority of my stance on this subject is against those terms, not any scientific research that may be going into this subject.

I commented this on Quora but am guessing it will be lost in the many comments there.

I went to your link and read your full answer. I’m going take you at face value and assume you truly want to help the trans community as much as you can. If this is the case, please read the following and take as much of it to heart as possible—I am not attacking you, just joining someone in an effort to spread good.

Your answer begins with a blatant falsehood. Our scientific and sociological understanding of gender is complicated, and the history of such an understanding is equally complicated, but “"There are only two genders” is a false statement. I urge you to read Nat Geo’s magazine issue titled “"Gender Revolutuon.”

Of course, this speaks to something more broadly about your answer: one personal experience does not entitle you to make generalizations about a highly varied experience. Instead, you should use this opportunity to do AS MUCH REASEARCH AS POSSIBLE, especially before posting opinions for thousands of people to consume.

It is clear you did not do much research from sentences like, “But I’m seriously disgusted with feminists and others using the rare occurrence of physically intersex people as proof that there are multiple genders and that gender and sex are different things.” Whether or not SOME people make this argument, this is NOT why we understand there to be multiple genders nor that gender and sex are different. I recommend my previous Nat Geo resource, but even Wikipedia offers a more nuanced analysis than you gave: Gender identity - Wikipedia.

Even if nothing you said was hate speech, you used many falsehoods to support your point—falsehoods which have historically fueled oppression and, yes, hate speech. I see no problem with Quora not wanting larger audiences to see it.

PS: What’s funny, however, is that the primary sentiment of your post is valid. I've heard from *some* trans friends that if there were an option besides transitioning, they may seek it out. These options do not exist currently, and so transitioning optimizes health and happiness.

I'm saddened but not surprised by the behavior of the Quora moderators. Why have a social issues topic (or any topic) if you only want select opinions? This seems to be par for the course in the vast majority of media though.

Thanks for the invitation to this site. I hope freedom of thoughtful speech for both sides can be maintained.

Jack, I think that was one of my issues too when I was going through my phase. In fact, it may explain a lot, a sort of "the grass is greener" situation, I felt like maybe being a boy would be better than being a girl, vice versa for some boys, perhaps they see certain privileges girls have and want to feel the same. Of course, that's simply a thought.

I hope your daughter the best in traversing the rest of her years as a teenager, these times will be tough but hopefully she feels more comfortable now, I know it was a huge relief for me when things started falling into place.